Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:04 am
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4681
Where exactly did you get the 12.69V and 5V readings? Might be some confusion ... :oops:

Have you tried a jump lead from the battery straight to the terminal on the starter motor?
(This assumes brushes and commutator aren't still coated in diesel!)

M45G pre-engage starter usually is a lot more expensive than the inertia starter, if you can find one (Lucas LRS 232?).

On the CF there's a distance piece (GM 6839423) and 2 locating dowels (GM 7204483) required for the pre-engage starter and they went NLS (no longer serviced) a long time ago.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:12 am
Hi Phil

I got a reading of 5v from the terminal on the solinoid that the battery wire / alternator wires bolt to when the battery wire is connected but then when I disconnect the battery wire and put the tester on the wire I get 12.69v

I tried the battery wire straight to the starter wire (bypassing the solinoid but I don't get anything :(

I will re fit the old solenoid this morning and see what readings I get

I will clean up the chassis leg where the screws go in from the solenoid (there are 2 black plastic spacers between the solenoid and the chassis, wouldn't this make the contact to the chassis limited? I'm guessing there so the power leads have less chance of hitting the body and grounding out?

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:19 am
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4681
If the battery is in a good state of charge then the reading dropping to 5V when the battery cable is connected to the solenoid terminal means that (a) something is drawing current from the system and (b) there's a bad connection between the battery terminal posts and the solenoid terminal or chassis earth.

For (a) the current draw doesn't need to be much if (b) is a really bad connection.

Start at the battery: check cleanliness and condition of the connections to the battery posts.

If the cable terminals are this type -

Image

then check the condition of the cable connections in the terminals - separate them for a good scrub if all you can see is grey-green tarnish or crumbly white deposits. Cable strands and hole in terminal should be clean and bright before re-assembly.

If either cable is loose in the terminal when both clamp screws are fully tightened (i.e. cable with 8mm² cross sectional area in a terminal for 10mm² cable for petrol engines, 10mm² cable for diesel engines in a 16mm² terminal) then fit the correct terminal so that cable strands are properly secured by the clamping screws.

Alternatively, crimp a piece of copper tube on the cable conductor to make up the the size to be a good fit in the terminal (here for the 1979cc petrol engine in my CF2, original 6mm² cable in a 8mm² terminal before I rewired using 8mm² cable) -

Image

Also check the cleanliness and condition of the earth cable connection to the battery support bracket.

At the solenoid end of the battery cable check the security and condition of the battery cable terminal and it in doubt then fit a new terminal, preferably crimped and soldered.

If the battery earth strap is a braided type that has gone a bit crunchy with age then it will be a good idea to replace it even if the end connections are good (likewise the engine earth strap if a braided type) so that the starter won't be starved of juice.

Insulated stranded cable (10mm² minimum for the Perkins 4.108) can be used in place of braided cable but for the engine earth go over-length so that there's a gentle bend in the cable to soak up engine vibration or the cable will fatigue fracture.

Once all the battery cables are checked/cleaned/fixed leave connection to the battery positive until last then just touch the terminal to the battery post to check for sparking. If this occurs then disconnect the main (thick) wire/s from the alternator to isolate it, check for sparking again and if there's no sparking then the alternator and, or wiring needs looking at.

Otherwise, check for problems in the dash circuits (lights, ignition switch etc.) if there's still a significant voltage drop when the brown wires and battery cable are connected at the solenoid with the alternator isolated.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:02 am
Hi Phil I've had to take the battery off a few days prior to the starting issue so I will check through your list tomorrow now :)
The one bush looks to have worn a lot more than the others on the starter would there be a reason for this? Also if I need to buy a bush kit would it be better to just buy this??

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 1272940875

I would have to drill a hole for the earth cable though as I'm guessing this is for a pre engaged starter
Or do I just buy a new bush kit

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:37 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4681
Do you mean bush as in bearing or brush?

Ebay commutator bracket kit with brake components is for M45G pre-engage starter.
M45G inertia starter bracket is different.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:56 am
Phil you again have saved me a fortune,
I went back to the start and went to take the battery off to check the terminals and low and behold the negative clamp had snapped so as you can guess it was catching now and again giving a supply to the electrics hence why I still had lights etc but no cranking power, I've pinched a clamp off the cf2 for now and she's on the key again :)


which I started up for the first time in months too :)) with a quick turn of the key :) she still won't start without easy start though :(

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:04 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4681
Excellent news.
That should see a bundle of charging and starting issues sorted in one go. :)

For a replacement terminal go for the chunkier plated type rather than the cheap'n'cheerful brass type which is prone to accelerated corrosion as well as cracking when no-one is looking.

Cold starting needing ether (Easy Start) is another matter.
Best place for questions about checking/repairing the CAV system on the Perkins 4.108 (and 4.154 - same system) is Fuel and exhaust > Diesel. :)
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:36 pm
Sorry Phil I'm confusing you with the two :) I meant I've pinched the clamp off the cf2
And it's her that needs the easy start not the Perkins

The cf2 is a 2.3 GM diesel

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:58 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4681
No worries. :)

Using ether for every cold start isn't good for engines not designed for it (i.e. big 'uns with ether bulb starting system).

If cylinder compression is ok (b-all fuel or oil smoke when warmed up can be a good guide but numbers from a compression test are better) then there may be a problem with the glow plugs system.

GM diesel engine cold start system logically is under Starting system with being all electrical whether the early type with relays (bulkhead type starter solenoids) and thermal switch below the heater air intake or later type with glow plugs relay above the engine bay.

Cold start system for Perkins engines is an oddity in the way Vauxhall grouped things, probably because most of the system is fuel related.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:34 pm
So the issue with the cf2 was as you said the glow plug relay and I have a new one to fit next time I go up to do some body work on it.

I've now got a new issue with the Perkins starter motor !!!!!!
It's lost the nut off the end of the main shaft !!!!! From what I can make out its a imperial 16mm castle nut would I be right Phil??? Thanks

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