Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:55 am
Not sure if it's the dodgy wiring or the alternator (I think it's had a higher output one put on it)
I drove it home in the dark (it also has a set of high output HID headlights on it) with the alternator light on but the lights all worked fine (I thought they would have got dimmer until they went off all together??? )

In the morning I took it to a boot sale and it started in the morning fine but then at the boot sale it wouldn't start to leave :( or after a quick tow start when I got home it wouldn't start again.

All the wiring is iffy with bare exposed wiring around the steering column some wires (a thick Rev/brown one has been looped away from the alternator back onto a thiner green wire)

I got a thick wire (with 3 iffy joins in it to the alternator) that is carrying 12.69 volts perminant to the back of the alternator

There's a thin wire that comes off the alternator back into the loom and also another dark (can't see a colour)
That is just chopped off the loom
There are 3 male connectors on the alternator only the two end ones have a connector on
There is also another spade terminal separate to them three with nothing connected to
On the side casing there is a wire crudely attached that goes across to the bulk head again crudely attached


On top of this the wiring is always live with or without the key in the ignition (but no oil / alternator lights on the dash until I turn the key)
And the fuse box gets red hot and the live wires to it give an iffy Conection even after cutting the wires back and new ends fitting :(

(Is the hot wires because I have fitted another inline battery in the boot that I am planning on using to power an inverter (I will fit an inline relay when I do this but thought the extra ampage would be better for starting ???))

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:07 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4673
If the alternator has two large spade terminals and one smaller one, all close together, then it only needs two wires, a thick brown one that should go to the battery positive terminal via the starter solenoid terminal and a thinner brown+yellow wire that should go to the alternator warning lamp.

Units with output greater than about 40A should have a very thick brown wire or a double run of not so thick brown wires to the starter motor solenoid. Need to know alternator type and output to calculate what should be fitted.

Some alternators need an earth wire between the casing and a bolt on the support bracket or crankcase, usually Bosch units on GM diesl or Opel petrol engines because the mounting is via rubber bushings but sometimes other makes work better with an earth wire.

Charging two batteries is best done using a split charge relay, either as a relay designed to switch on when the alternator warning lamp goes out or a voltage sensing type. Also, the second battery ought to be a deep cycle ('leisure') type rather than an ordinary starting battery so that the alternator, split charge relay and wiring to the second battery doesn't have to cope with more than about 30A charging current.

Fusebox shouldn't be in the charging circuit. If it's the 12-way type then see whether it runs cooler with new 35A fuses for everything. Also check for melting of the plastic around fuse terminals which can result in poor connections via the through rivets.

For anything else will need the 13- or 14-character chassis number starting 97- and a few photos showing the offending bits, both close up so that wiring colours and thickness can be determined and from further back so that the location and the various electrical components can be identified.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:41 pm
Thanks Phil

I think I will disconnect the second battery and fit a leisure battery when I fit the split charge relay (I was looking at the Durite one its voltage sensing,

I will take some pictures

I think the ignition barrel is not switching right (would this cause perminant power)
The fuse box plastic is a bit melted and the rivets/connectors to the wires move
Moving the wires make the current flow/not flow
Also the indicator stalk terminals are worn and play up,

Have sourced a second hand barrel/stalk/fuse box and was thinking maybe make up a whole new loom for the van to cure any problems

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:16 pm
So whilst I'm waiting for my pictures to upload I thought I'd give a little update,

I have a white wire in the loom (that's not on the wiring diagram for my model) that was attached to the solenoid (the old one anyway. The new one doesn't have a spade for it !!! Starting current it said on the solenoid paperwork but no spade to attach it anyway??) so it's currently (pardon the pun) not connected at all

Chasing it back (you will see in the picture of the fuse box once it's uploaded) it is wired into the same wire (number 48) pre fuse

It's not connected at the moment so I guess I don't need it to be and would like to cut it out and get a better connection to the fuse box for wire 48 on its own

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:56 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4673
Two white wires at fuse 3 are ignition supply, the thicker one from the ignition switch, the thinner one to the ignition system on petrol engine models or fuel shut-off solenoid on diesel engine models. Their position 'pre-fuse' is correct, the thicker white wire from the ignition switch supplying fuses 3, 4, 5 and 6. (A fuse for the ignition system only came in with CF2 models with 21-way fusebox.)

White wire at the starter solenoid (thinner than the white+red wire for energising the solenoid) is for the petrol engine cold start circuit that by-passes the resistance wire in the front harness so that the coil operates at battery voltage for starting instead of about half battery voltage when the engine is running.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:17 pm
Image

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Image

I have since these pictures tidied up the wiring from the alternator to the loom and there is only a short section now that is all tidy and correct size :)
Also on the fuse box I have split the two white wires back to there own plug to attach to the fuse board

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:58 am
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4673
The alternator looks like it could be a 50-60A output type so it ought to have a double run of the thick brown wire to the starter solenoid.
If the middle blade connector is at battery volts when the existing thick brown wire is connected (should be for this type of alternator) then use the middle terminal for a second wire.
Both wires should be 65/0.30 (65 strands, each strand 0.30mm thick) to cope with up to 70A without heating losses.
44/0.30 will do at a pinch for up to 55A, this relying on alternator maximum output only being demanded during the first phase of charging the battery after which charge rate will drop and heavy current demands from other circuits will be shared between the battery and alternator. This assumes a battery in good condition though ...
Crimp and solder connection using a non-insulated female terminal will be best for reliability; use heat shrink tubing for insulation.

The fusebox is knackered. If you can't find a CF fusebox then a Bedford TK fusebox will do but will need a jumper wire on the back to bridge a gap in the brass strip on the supplies side, otherwise it's much the same fusebox. Use 44/0.30 for the jumper wire, preferably crimp and solder connection as for the alternator.

Perkins diesel engines don't need the white wire at the starter or the thinner white wire at the fusebox.

The igniter element in the intake manifold should be fed by a brown+red wire from the cold start switch.
The switch should be supplied by a brown wire from the battery junction bullet connector behind the dash with a number of brown wires to it.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:07 pm
I've run an extra wire to the solinoid now and I'm guessing it was working but now I have another issue :(

The starter motor is dead again and I think it's taken the new solinoid down with it too :(

I get 12.69 volts when the battery wire is disconnected from the solinoid but as soon as I connect it all up I'm only getting 5 volts and nothing works :(

I had a filming job yesterday so I nut and bolted the battery lead straight to the van wiring (by passing the solinoid) and all the electrics are working fine (I've also retro fitted a new 12 way blade fuse fuse box)

Would it be the starter breaking cause the solinoid to go down or would it be visa versa ???

Re: Charging issue

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:13 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 4673
Sounds more like a bad connection at the solenoid for the starter and the rest of the electrical system to be affected. Charging system probably won't be working too well either.

If the solenoid is an original bulkhead mount type attached to the chassis longitudinal member below the cab floor then the terminal post for the battery cable may be the problem, e.g. threads worn, nuts rusty, post loose in solenoid body etc.

Fix is a new solenoid: 12V bulkhead solenoid for Land Rover usually cheapest/easiest to get hold of.

When replacing a bulkhead mount solenoid ensure that there is a good earth connection between the solenoid bracket and chassis.
  • What is real is not the appearance but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Charging issue

Post by Classicicecreams » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:10 pm
I've cleaned out the starter motor as if was full of diesel from a leaking injector pipe and replaced it (thinking that might be why) and still nothing.

The solenoid is brand new so I'm going to re fit the old one and test that but I'm sure that is 100% buggered :( too

Can I fit a pre engaged starter as if I need to buy a new starter and another new solenoid I may as well fit a newer type that will (from what I've seen) be cheaper anyway ?? If it can be done which one would I need to buy?

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