Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

User avatar
Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:39 am
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3733
Earlier transmission -

Image

No 5: 7138260 ROLLER, 3mm x 11.8mm, spigot bearing, x24
No 6: 7139077 RING, thrust, x2

Thrust rings are 2mm thick with external diameter that is a free fit in the bore of the main drive pinion (No 1) and internal diameter that is a free fit on the spigot of the mainshaft (No 4). Thrust rings may have to be made to order by a bearings specialist.

The earlier arrangement replaces the caged roller bearing assembly 9959174 with 3mm x 9.8mm rollers introduced at chassis FY600001 and finally withdrawn at chassis DV600799 due to multiple failures of the bearing.

Failure initially is due to overheating. This is caused by a combination of overloading of rollers reduced in number and length and obstruction of free oil flow into the rollers by the plastic cage.

For a CF that is driven carefully the caged bearing can be adequate and individual new rollers can be pressed into a clean used cage if necessary.

For a CF that is heavily laden, or if the intermediate gears (1, 2, 3) are used a lot, the earlier arrangement of separate rollers and thrust washers will be better.
Last edited by Phil Bradshaw on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

Post by G-blitz » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:34 am
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:25 pm
Posts: 7
Hello Phil, and thanks for the quick and detailed answer !
You write: "No 5: 7138260 ROLLER, 3mm x 11.8mm, spigot bearing, x24"
In your earlier post you write " GM introduced to replace the original 25 single rollers with two thrust washers"
So 24x single rollers or 25x single rollers ?
Any idea where to buy these ? Is 7138260 the GM part number of the rollers ?
Best regards
boris

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

User avatar
Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:42 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3733
24 single rollers: I checked the GM catalogue this time.
(25 probably came from relying on faulty memory ... :oops: Only the correct number of rollers will pack neatly in the main drive pinion bore; one too many always will ride above adjacent rollers.)

7138260 and 7139077 are GM part numbers and both apply to all Vauxhall 4-speed transmissions 1969-1984 with or without Laycock J-type overdrive.

My local bearings specialist usually can supply 3mm diameter rollers in different lengths within a week or so if they don't have them in stock. Same should apply where you are. (At present only 9.8mm long rollers in stock in the club Parts Department.)
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

Post by G-blitz » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:56 pm
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:25 pm
Posts: 7
Hi Phil,

With your partnumbers I could order 3mm x 11.8mm rollers and the two thrust rings at
http://www.opel-classicparts.de/catalog ... ?q=7139077
Question:
The end of my Mainshaft is 14-15mm.
11.8mm roller + 2x 2mm thrust ring = 15.8mm which ist longer than the end of the mainshaft...
Are you sure it needs tow thrust rings and not only one ? Also on the drawing there is only one thrust ring (6)
Best regards
Boris

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

User avatar
Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:55 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3733
A good thing that you asked: I had forgotten about changes to the mainshaft after chassis HY600001 (1978 production year) and retention of the caged roller bearing through to 1984 for production models. (Maybe a way of ensuring demand for replacement transmissions once the warranty period expires; not all caged bearings fail so quickly ...)

Earlier Vauxhall transmission with plain front ball bearing and separate roller bearings for the mainshaft spigot uses one thrust ring on the mainshaft side of the rollers.

When the caged bearing was introduced for later transmissions with sealed front ball bearing and main drive pinion modified for the sealed bearing the thrust ring remained. When the caged bearing was superseded by 24 rollers a further thrust ring also is listed.

Thrust rings and separate rollers for earlier and later transmissions have the same part numbers. Caged bearing part number stayed the same through its use.

Rollers and two thrust rings or caged roller bearing and one thrust ring should fit comfortably in the bore of a main drive pinion with sealed front bearing regardless of mainshaft fitted.

Where doubt may arise is after chassis HY600001; change in rear ball bearing and its location on the mainshaft that occurred during 1983 production year and applied retrospectively to earlier transmissions with sealed front ball bearing could account for the difference in number of thrust rings for the mainshaft spigot rollers or caged bearing.

To further complicate things the transmission that you are working on may not be the original unit and could have been incorrectly assembled previously (most common cause of failures that I've had to deal with over the years).

If there is any doubt then, once the mainshaft assembly and reverse pinion are installed in the main casing, temporarily fit the main drive pinion and front cover assembly without a gasket or the synchronising ring for top gear and check for binding of the mainshaft against the thrust ring/s and roller bearings (or caged roller bearing) by rotating the pinion as the 5 front cover securing bolts are evenly tightened.
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

Post by G-blitz » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:17 pm
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:25 pm
Posts: 7
Phil Bradshaw wrote: To further complicate things the transmission that you are working on may not be the original unit and could have been incorrectly assembled previously (most common cause of failures that I've had to deal with over the years).

If there is any doubt then, once the mainshaft assembly and reverse pinion are installed in the main casing, temporarily fit the main drive pinion and front cover assembly without a gasket or the synchronising ring for top gear and check for binding of the mainshaft against the thrust ring/s and roller bearings (or caged roller bearing) by rotating the pinion as the 5 front cover securing bolts are evenly tightened.
Effectively the transmission is not the original one and I don't know the date of production. So I guess I have to test as you describe.
So if I have understood correctly, there must be one or two thrust rings depending on the production year ?
If two thrust rings, one on each side of the rollers or two rings on the same side of the rolles (mainshaft side)?
Best regards
boris

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

User avatar
Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:57 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3733
When two thrust rings are used one is fitted each end of the rollers, like the single row of rollers on the countershaft (layshaft).

When one thrust ring is used it should be fitted on the mainshaft side of the rollers.
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

Post by G-blitz » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:51 am
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:25 pm
Posts: 7
Many thanks Phil, you helped me really a lot, great detailed answers !!!
One last question:
What is the difference between a "plain front ball bearing" and a "sealed front ball bearing" ? How can I make the difference ?

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

User avatar
Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:53 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3733
Plain bearing is open on both sides; sealed bearing has an integral oil seal to the front.

Image

I have had to cheat for the photo: I haven't got any plain front bearings so the the plain bearing in the photo is a rear bearing with similar metal (steel) cage.
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: heavy clanking noise when moving

Post by G-blitz » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:38 pm
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:25 pm
Posts: 7
Hello Phil,
Thanks to your advises the gearbox could be mounted with spigot bearing x24 and thrust rings x2.
Unfortunately the gearbox worked only one or two km on the testdrive and then the spigots fused around the mainshaft, the input shaft also destroyed :-(
I don't know what went wrong, eventually the input shaft was already used to much. I was not present on the testdrive and I did not assemble the gearbox, so I don't know much about the facts.
Now I am looking for a solution to solve the problem if possible.
A friend of mine has sent his bedford overdrive gearbox to england for overhaul (Overdrive Repair Services, Sheffield). I think my gearbox needs a vauxhall specialist in order to repair/replace input and mainshaft.
Does anyone can recommend a good place to repair and overhaul my gearbox ?
Best regards
Boris

Image

Destroyed input shaft

Image

Main shaft with fused spigot
Last edited by admin on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Change attachments to image links.

Post Reply

Return to “Manual transmission”