Where to find help when you want to change major units on your CF - engine, transmission, brakes etc. - or upgrade earlier models to later specifications.

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:41 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3462
Best option is the propellor shaft for the Bedford axle from a CF2 with ZF traqnsmission. Centre bearing mounting to the chassis cross member may be different but shouldn't be too difficult to adapt with a lump of steel angle or similar.

To change from larger flange for the Salisbury axle requires the smaller yoke for the shaft as well as the flange yoke, i.e. cut and weld. Don't destroy a good propellor shaft with a CV joint on it unless you can't avoid it: better to carve up a knackered one, maybe an earlier one-piece for the larger diameter tube (but use shaft front yoke from one-piece shaft with rubber damper at the rear - same size universal joint but the damper isn't required for shorter shafts). Balancing may cost more than the machining and welding ....
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

Post by camper23 » Subscribing Member » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:04 pm
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 12:37 pm
Posts: 49
Thanks for that Phil.

I will not be destroying the propshaft it just goes against the grain.

I should add further to me predicament.

The propshaft I purchased (I thought) was from a SWB CF which had been modified (shortened) to connect to a frontera engine and gearbox conversion which never happend. The idea was it would fit my SWB CF with my new ZF box but need an extension to the front part of the propshaft flage to mate up with the output flange on the ZF. So far so good, as making an extension flange is within my capability. However, as well as the propshaft flange not mating with my diff I have also offered up the propshaft to my SWB CF and the centre bearing does not align with with the existing one but is nearer to the next cross member further forward closer to the gearbox.

In other words I think it is off a LWB. Luckily it will still be be 150mm short overall once the ZF box is in place. So my plan is the make two flange adaptors each approximately 75mm long. One with the same flange at each end (to match the ZF output flange and the flange on the front propshaft section). The other will have the diff flange on one end and the other the flange to suit the end of the propshaft. This allows the overhang for each to be reduced thus reducing the stress on the input bearing of the diff and (to a lesser degree) the output bearing of the gearbox. I t will also reduce the likely hood of out of balance/ eccentric situation. Thinking about it now i do not think the combination of a SWB CF with a ZF box exists in reality hence there is not a propshaft made with the correct diff flange, i should of asked you first!

Anyhow once that is done I will have to get inventive to mount the centre bearing which will not be near the normal position but further forward. I can vary the relative lengths of the two adaptors ( within limits) to shift the position of the centre bearing a little either way. From what i have measured flat on my back underneath the CF there should be room further forward to mount the centre bearing without it fouling anything. I have of course got to put in the spacers under the gearbox support beam for the ZF box which will drop it down a little more and give more leeway.

This is the perils of buying blind i am afraid.

Cheers

Alan

IF and when it get done I will take a few photos it might help someone.

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

Post by camper23 » Subscribing Member » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:55 pm
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 12:37 pm
Posts: 49
Hello to all again.

Bit of an update on the ZF transplant.

I have completely stripped and rebuilt the 4 speed box I got from Germany. New bearings and seals throughout including the needle rollers in the various gears. I purchased new loose needles of correct or close correct length (all 2mm dia as it happens) and fitted them in the old cages. Some of the bearing surfaces in which the needle rollers ran where a little marked but that's how they will have to be I am afraid. The synchro hubs and baulk rings where are o.k according to specs and visual inspection. The other bits and bearings came from a vendor on Ebay in the U.K. I had to straighten the reverse gear selector fork which some heavy handed so and so of a driver had managed to bend. Caused (I think) by a knackered release bearing causing the clutch to drag hence needing forcing into reverse. The evidence for the release bearing theory, was that the bearing spigot was scored and reverse gear was well mashed being a crash engagement. I deburred the teeth on the latter remove any serious damage make engagement easier and reduce the risk of any more bits of tooth fracturing off. .

As I do not have a clutch fork to suit this box In have made one from scratch based on photos on this forum and others plus a bit of reverse engineering and swearing and seems to work ok. I post separately on that with a sketch with measurements and some photos one it has been used in anger so to speak, might be useful to someone.

Those, I think was probably the easy bit(s)!

I have pulled out the old vauxhall box and removed what turned out to be a laycock 8.5" clutch (worn out as I suspected). I have put on the ZF box without clutch for the moment as I have to do some work with propshaft that is too short and needs a new centre bearing mount dreaming up. So far so good. or perhaps not.

I believed that the gearbox support cross member was going to need spacers putting in as Phil had already advised. I believed it was about and inch. On trying to fit the cross member I have hit some problems.

1. The only holes in the chassis that are anywhere near close to being in the right place for the cross member are the same ones that where used for the vauxhall box i.e. the two nearest the front of the van. There may be bit of sag in the engine mounts (rearwards) making things bit tight with the cross member fouling the "s" shaped steel bracket bolted to the ZF. This may or may not be correct, though perhaps it is the engine mounts that are a little tired.

2. The second thing is the amount of spacing for cross member required seems well in excess of an inch. Based on the photos in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=530&hilit=a+cooked+engine&start=20

which seems to show the gear change turret poking through about an inch into the cab, the amount of spacing I need to put in is huge in comparison to an inch!

Interestingly the combination and dimension of rubber bushes and spacers I have taken off the vauxhall box looks almost identical in dimensions to those shown in the above thread, for the ZF box which is leading me to wonder if the cross member much deeper in some models with the ZF box?

I should say my Cf is a CF 230 1.8l slant short wheelbase.

I have had a look at the parts diagrams to try and see if there are two parts numbers for different cross members but i can not seem to positively identify a difference.

I think I am missing something?

Also the other question I have can I run a 8.5" clutch either Laycock or Borg and beck with the ZF box ?


All help and comments gratefully received.


Cheers

Alan
Last edited by camper23 on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:40 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3462
Bracket between mounting and transmission may be incorrect for a SWB model.

The problem here is that the only SWB production models with ZF 4-speed that I know of were CF2 with a different gearshift aperture in the cab floor, query also different brackets with threaded inserts welded to the chassis longitudinal members.

Have a look at the brackets for GM diesel engine rear mounting: 9965753 for 4-speed.

I've a vague recollection that I ended using a bracket from a GM automatic transmission for CF when I had a ZF on the back of a Vauxhall OHC engine in a SWB model; can't remember why though.

Clutch diameter is right for 1759cc engine; larger diameter clutch capable of handling more torque won't change anything much but will have an easy life. 9.5-inch clutch is easier to find but you'll need to change to 9.5-inch clutch cable, relay lever and push rod plus find a fork to go with them.
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

Post by camper23 » Subscribing Member » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:26 am
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 12:37 pm
Posts: 49
Hi Phil


thanks for the reply
I take on board your comments about the clutch I have ordered a 9.5" . Like I said I already have the release bearing and my home engineered push fork. I also have the relay mechanism. The floor aperture seems fine I just unscrewed the plate that holds the gaiter.

Bugger Bugger and Bugger again.


The vexing question of the cross member is giving me a headache. I attach some photos in links to show the scale of things.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmAzWwNue4vNDPTSH

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmAtt5NUCqTjwkDo4


The gap is huge I can not understand what is going on. The turret of the gearbox i would estimate is in the right place. The tilt of the motor is about right to prevent air inlet hose to carb being squashed, rad hoses and other clearances etc.etc.

Below are some photos from a French CF site showing a ZF box same as min in situ. it is possible that the crossmember has a much deeper bow in it to accommodate the ZF or the chasisis is different (ie deeper mounts welded to the rails. Those are the only explanations I can come up with? What to do about it is the problem I am too far down the rabbit hole to go back

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmBrZ1RBTUeJgKq_J


https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmBlE2me4syh6h2K9

Cheers

Alan
Last edited by camper23 on Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:31 pm
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3462
Ah. Right. You're short of the bracket (51) between the cross member and the bracket welded to the chassis, one each side. For some reason I thought you had the brackets already. Duh.

Illustration is for diesel engine models 1978-84; until introduction of the Opel CIH engine (CF2) all petrol engine models with factory fitted ZF transmission were LWB having deeper section chassis brackets than SWB models and with more mounting holes.

Image

Bracket (51) for CF2 SWB with ZF 4-speed is 91005989, the same as for GM automatic transmission 1978-on. (Maybe that's what I'm remembering about my first CF umpteen years ago.)

Step-down of bracket (51) on my CF2 is about 1 inch; the welded brackets have more holes and seem longer than earlier brackets but it's a bit too damp and miserable to be measuring up and taking photos at present.

Where the cross member sits in relation to the chassis brackets in your photos looks about right for when it hangs off the transmission. When the transmission is settled onto the cross member and the mounting and bushes take the strain the top of the transmission should be clear of the underside of the cab floor.

Bracket (30) is for ZF 4-speed; the one in your photos looks about right.

Just to be sure, alignment of transmission mounting for ZF 4-speed, 3/8-inch stud to the rear (illustration is for earlier long wheelbase models; mounting alignment for short wheelbase CF2 is identical) -

Image

Rear mounting for ZF 4-speed is 91097546 (GM diesel, Opel CIH petrol, also Vauxhall OHC with automatic transmission from Ch.DV600101- ). 8829680 for most Vauxhall OHC from start of production has a different offset from centre of the 3/8-inch stud. I have a feeling 91097546 also has a wider top platform with two pairs of holes for bolts and nuts instead of two 5/16-inch studs.

Something else to look at under my CF2 but it's been raining again -

Image

Maybe later ...
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

Post by camper23 » Subscribing Member » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:48 pm
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 12:37 pm
Posts: 49
Playing in the mud looks more fun than rolling in it under a van!


Right having looked at your post I have concocted the following solution to the problem.

1. First set the gearbox engine combination in the right position so as to put the centre of the output flange on the ZF in the same position that the centre line of the vauxhall would have occupied. This means the engine will be at the same tilt angle. Obviously the ZF box is much shorter but using the central rubber mount on both boxes as the reference point and carefully measuring from the centre line of the vauxhall box to the bottom of the rubber, I was able to calculate the necessary spacers required. 50 mm as it turned out. These took the form of two pieces of 25 x 50 box section cut to a suitable length and drilled to suit the crossmember hole spacing ( see photo ) Two 3/8 x 4" unf bolts are needed for each side to accomadate the new spacers. I will also be putting the torque reaction arm on a new spacer and rubber bushes will have to concocted.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmD74wnK1drq-3kFw

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmB9vL2_7g1XKqTPx

Nothing special as you can see just some box I had lying about

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmB6upY98uSneMsd2

A view of the gearbox turret with the gearbox and engine in correct position.



2. Once in position i place a tensioned brick layers line centre to centre ( diff flange to Gbox flange) this allowed me to select the centre position of the centre bearing on the propshaft I have. It was an easy fabrication from some 3 mm plate cut and bent to suit the centre bearing mount and the chassis cross member I selected. I drilled the chassis and installed blind 8mm thread rivnuts (3off) to mount the new bracket

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmDHNYjdwAYdU4t5n

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmEGgeAV-EELgOVFK

Rivnuts installed to suit bracket. Bracket used as drilling template.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmDc__SrNg1TM92S_

Note the angle of bend is slightly acute to accommodate the the angle of the propshaft to the chassis. I have since put a couple of small fillets on the inside of this to give more stiffness. There is also a 20 mm thick spacer between the bracket and the chassis to put the drive flange at the gearbox end of the propshaft in the right place.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmEA4ztucVqxeMDWk

General view showing where the new centre bearing mount is located (3 rivnuts) in comparison to the old mounting (two bolts screwed in).

3. I have now to make a 50mm x 100mm dia long spacer turned in aluminium to connect the Gbox flange to my propshaft (both ZF pattern) this will use 4 new 3" x 3/8" unf high tensile bolts with new nuts.

4. I set the central sliding spline in the prop shaft roughly to centre of travel. This allowed me to measure the length of the ZF to back axle flange adapter. About 42 mm in length. New suitable 3/8" and 5/16 high tensile nuts and bolts have been sourced. I wanted to keep this adaptor as short as possible to reduce load on the diff pinion shaft. The design I have come up with just allows the insertion of the 5/16" bolts. and gives room to tighten the 3/8" nuts holding the propshaft to the adaptor. This adaptor will be made in steel probably EN8 or similar. The holes will be placed opposite each other in each end of the adaptor to maintain balance.

5. I made a new floor plate to hold the existing gaiter. Cut a 140mm dia hole centred on the new gear change lever centre point in a suitably sized piece of sheet steel. used a piece of 6mm dia copper tubing bent into a hoop around a 140 dia former. Withe the hoop layed flat split it around the circumference at the 12 o'clock position with a dremel slicing wheel ( tricky bit ). Tacked it around the hole in 4 places with tin mans solder and a big gas powered soldering iron. Once tacked I dressed down with a flat punch about half the copper tube flat to the sheet steel all the way around to form a flange flat against the steel leaving half the tube standing up look like the original "C" shaped lip which locks to the gaiter in place. I then soldered the rest of the flange I formed to the steel to give it strength and voila! A bit fiddly but functional and will be hidden by the carpet.


https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmDIz_pbsZrw2LzUO

Not pretty but very functional.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmC-uYSiN_0egniho


https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmDRVMTwLTk31biI7

6. The gear lever I acquired was for a RHD CF, mine is LD so turned it around 180 degrees and with a a bit of heating and bending to increase the set of the lever and get it near to the LHS it seems ok. I will have to make a new knob and I think I may use this extend the lever a bit more at the same time.

7. New clutch cable fitted through the bulk head a job made easier for me by removing drivers seat and seat mount box plus the brake pedal. The cable is supposed to be for my LHD CF but the nipple was a bit small to suit the existing clevis on the clutch pedal so I built it up a bit with a few gobs of mig weld and filed it down by hand the match the original. It also seems that the outer cable is excessively long?? is there a specific cable run? With it being a LHD it might not be something you have experience of ? The inner cable travel seems perfect and mates with the clutch fork bell housing well.

8. 9.5" clutch kit on its way from calder clutches, flywheel off today and I have reground it, just have to drill and tap it and drill the dowel holes. I'll use 8mm high tensile bolts as I have them and do not have a 5/16" unf tap. A quick measure seemed to to show a 10 5/8 " pcd for the bolts and dowels?

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmCqdZL8R7SBbBfv8

Job done just the dowels to install.

9. Need to source a speedo cable I have one but there is no union on the speedometer end an I do not want to butcher the vauxhall one. I'll try speedy cables I think either for a complete cable or just the union. Interestingly the gearbox I bought from germany came with a splitter on the speedo output., probably for a tachograph. One of the outputs is only 6% different in ratio to the vauxhall drive which is lucky as without the splitter the ratio straight from the gearbox is miles out! You can see the spliter installed on side of gearbox.


https://1drv.ms/i/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmDwRkx2GoZqJyaE3


I have since fabricated a new union to connect the speedo cable to the clock. It is a 5/8" x 18tpi 55 degree thread. Machined up and internally screwcut and along with a flanged ferrule (actually a stainless steel stiffener used inside 15mm plastic pumbing pipe when used in compression fittings) and some suitable plastic hose and heat shrink has done the job nicely.







TTFN

Alan
Last edited by camper23 on Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

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Post by VDUB384 » Club admin » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:28 am
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:01 am
Posts: 1304
As regards to the alternator I would have gone for a 75amp as it's being used on a camper you need the extra to split charge the living area batteries .
Dave
Whilst good maintainece is the best prevention"If its not broken don't fix it."
Image

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

Post by camper23 » Subscribing Member » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:42 pm
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 12:37 pm
Posts: 49
Just by way of finishing of the thread I attach a couple of photos of the adaptors I made to extend the propshaft, front and rear. and the propshaft centre bearing support.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AltYeAIGKS4ZmgK0LhJZXCgImhwk


I have details of dimensions if anyone needs them.


I can confirm that the new ZF box is working a treat nice and quiet through the gears no noise on overrun, synchros all good etc. Though there is one turd in the sandpit, the reverse gear that I dressed to remove the damage on the teeth though working perfectly and nice and quiet when under load makes a horrid noise on the overrun. Non working flanks of the teeth must have some damage as well. Luckily reverse is not used an awful lot so its is a fault I will have to monitor and live with!

At Least the diagnosis that the Vauxhall gearbox was the source of all the din and not the differential transferring noise forward!! Thankfully.


Cheers

Alan

Re: Gearbox ZF four speed in place of Vauxhall 4 speed

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Post by Phil Bradshaw » Club admin » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:13 am
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:15 pm
Posts: 3462
Good fix for the propellor shaft by the look of it. :thumb:

Just one thing: front flange adaptor may work loose due to the relatively long bolts. Loctite 638 on (clean) mating faces and high tensile bolts with P-type (precision) nyloc nuts should prevent torsional displacement though. (Not the best use of 638 adhesive but keeping bolts tight should maintain the bond.)
  • What is real is not the external form but the idea, the essence of things. Constantin Brâncuși

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